Liam Houlahan is the original founder of Surveybot.io which he built in 2017 and got acquired after 18 months. In this episode, we talked about his journey, how he got the idea for Surveybot, subsequently grew it to $10k MRR and how it got acquired at a great price.
00:01 Intro
01:04 Who is Liam Houlahan?
01:44 How did Liam come up with the Surveybot idea?
03:22 Liam's history of building software apps
05:03 Weekend project beginning
06:40 Going full time
07:35 Early growth of Surveybot
08:35 Getting to default alive
09:18 Receiving an acquisition offer
10:23 Liam's reaction to receiving an acquisition offer
14:29 The acquisition process
15:05 Joining the acquirer
18:34 The scale of the deal
21:49 Experience working at the acquiring company
22:16 Challenges of working at a larger company
24:05 What it's like to join a company through an acquisition vs being hired
25:55 Why Liam quit his job at the acquirer?
26:58 How Liam and Johnny met?
27:26 Liam wanting to buy Surveybot back
29:06 Why buy it back?
30:36 What's next for Liam?
32:35 Wrap up
References:
Reach out to Liam @startupsmith
Liam's latest product https://getproductfit.com
12 startups in 12 months challenge
Johnny's portfolio & updates
https://newsletter.johnnytong.com
Matt's portfolio
https://wpdiscussionboard.com/
Follow us on Twitter for more live deal/progress updates
Johnny:
Hey, How's it going? Liam,
Liam:
Good. Johnny, great to be here.
Johnny:
This is a little different than our normal recording between me and Matt. So Liam is the original founder of the app that I bought, which is called Surveybot, I guess, the process from the seller's perspective, because me and Matt, we have talked about buying, forcing these deals. I have a friend who asked me about, like, what is it feels like to be on the seller side? What does that look like? So that's why I thought, Oh, I'm working with you right now to rebuild some of the infrastructure for Surveybot. We have a great opportunity to kind of turn the tables and learn about what it's like to sell. And before we get into the deal, why don't you talk about, like, how did you get into tech? What inspired you to build web apps?
Liam:
Yeah, sounds good. So I am originally from New Zealand, which is where I am at the moment, staying away from the covid world. So I feel pretty lucky about that. Yeah. I've been working in tech for quite a while now. Like, when I was younger, I was a bit of a gamer. So I feel like that kind of sparked that interest. And then I studied a software degree, but I was always quite an entrepreneurial person, had little side businesses and things. And so as soon as I had the skills to code, I was launching products all the time. So, Yeah, fast forward quite a few years we get to the Surveybot story. So I had another startup before Surveybot, and there are a number of things that just kind of happened that led me to really see an opportunity with Surveybot. So that startup was a social shopping app, targeting a younger demographic or people more like teenagers. And when I went through the process of building that product, I guess first hand experience the challenges of doing research and interviews and all this kind of stuff. And so when I saw the Facebook Messenger bot platform coming out, it got me thinking, this could be a really good tool for doing surveys where the user is already familiar with the app that they're using. They use it every day with their friends and it's already on their phone. So the original hypothesis was that by doing the survey on the Messenger app with a chat interface, the response will be a lot higher, especially from a younger demographic.
Johnny:
Do you remember how many apps you've launched prior to Surveybot?
Liam:
But you are gonna test me? Not exactly, but, like, more than ten, maybe not more than ten, but definitely more than they could count on one hand, maybe between five and ten.
Johnny:
So I guess you're experienced at launching things, it's not your first go-around this survey bot app.
Liam:
Definitely not Surveybot would be my second, like, serious business attempt, if you get what I mean. I always have, like, a little side project that I might dabble on. You know probably started out as more of a way to learn to code or to upskill. I always learn better by creating a project than doing a tutorial or a course or something. So that was kind of my learning style. And every year I'd have some kind of side project that I'd be working on.
Johnny:
And did you start this on your own, or are you working with other people?
Liam:
Yeah. Surveybot was a solo endeavor, so 99% of it was me. I did have at one point I hire some contractors, I guess, to help with creating the help content and customer success. But pretty much the whole thing that was done alone.
Johnny:
Right. And for the audience, if you're unfamiliar with my journey with acquiring Surveybot, you can go to surveybot.io. It's an app that helps users create surveys on the Facebook Messenger platform. It basically turns a survey into a chatbot. So it's more of a different format. It's almost like you're having a conversation with someone when they're asking you questions and you're replying. Is this your first Facebook app?
Liam:
Yeah. Like first Facebook bot. I built things in the past that might use some of the other API's, like the social login. But, Yeah, the first, like, pot that I built. And you started in which year originally it was basically a side project. And I think I started towards the end of 2016. I had this idea. I really wanted to try out the Messenger APIs and give it a go. So I built it probably just a weekend. I built a very, very simple MVP and a one page landing page. Put it up. And then that was the I basically forgot about it for a few months. And then what happened afterwards? Yeah. So basically I started noticing, like, more and more people were signing up to it, and it just kind of grew. I kept growing on a phone and I wasn't doing anything. I probably wasn't even replying to people most of the time, but the finance was still growing. I got to a point where I was like, like, this is crazy. Like, I'm not even working on it, and it's growing. So there's clearly something here. I should probably do something about it.
Johnny:
So I guess you're working at another job while this is happening. Did you, at any given point, start working on this full time? Just want to take people back to 2017, put this out as a weekend project. Several months gone by, people start using it. What happened next?
Liam:
There was probably maybe six months from when I had created as a side project to when I actually got serious about it. During the time where I wasn't really working on it, I probably would jump on every now and again and fix something or add a small feature or something. But Yeah, it was about six months. And then I decided I want to go all in on this. I want to give this a serious go. Like, clearly there's something here. Initially, I spent about three months just, like, just head down, coding, fixing things, adding features, because there was, like, a very active customer base. I was able to engage with them and take their feedback and iterate on the product. And then after that initial three months, I got to a point where I was like, okay, I think this is good enough. And I introduced the billing into the app.
Johnny:
And at this point, are you working full time on Surveybot? Did you quit your job? Was that a hard decision?
Liam:
There was an initial three month period where I was full time before. After I got to the billing.
Johnny:
Take us through kind of the journey of growing, because now you're working full time. And I guess you're looking at the monthly recurring revenue every month closer now that this went from a weekend project to a full time endeavor.
Liam:
I fairly clearly remember the first month. Nine customers, I think, came on board. So that was really promising because I had worked so closely for that three months with them. And Yeah, like, really helped them. And iterate on the product. There was like a very active user base. And so, Yeah, there were like nine customers initially. And then after that first month, the growth definitely slowed. But it was kind of up and down, like, some months it would grow by, I don't know, a few customers. But then there were months where, like, I think it was a month where it, like, doubled or tripled. And I was like, Wow, this is awesome. Yeah. It didn't take long to get the revenue up. I think after about six months, the revenue was pretty healthy. I don't remember the exact levels, but it would have been at a level that I could pay the bills, which was the main thing.
Johnny:
Right. So I was supporting you personal. This app is supporting you.
Liam:
Yeah, absolutely.
Johnny:
You're at least getting close to product market fit because your solo founder hire one contractor to help you with customer success and documentation. And after six months, you're getting to a point where you're supporting yourself. And this would be 2018 after close to a year?
Liam:
No, probably towards the end of 2017. Yeah. I would have been in a good position, for sure.
Johnny:
Right. And then what happened? Like, when did you get the interest in acquiring Surveybot?
Liam:
You mean selling selling?
Johnny:
Well, did someone reach out to you about acquiring Surveybot.
Liam:
Yeah. So the acquirer reached out, it would have been mid 2018. And Yeah, that was completely out of the blue. I just got an email one day asking if I was interested. And I think it was like, a partnership or something. The first thing I do is I do a Google and be like, Who is this is a serious person. Because at the time this whole chatbot world exploded, I would always get approached partnerships. Like, I want to white label your air affiliate deals, all these kinds of things. So even though I might have a call of someone, I knew the likelihood that it goes anywhere, it's kind of low. It looks like a legitimate company. So. Yeah. So I took the call in.
Johnny:
What was the feeling like once you found out that this is more serious than the normal kind of partnership emails that you get that are less serious? So this seems to be legit. Was anything going through your mind assuming this is your first acquisition offer?
Liam:
Yeah. Had to remember, I'd say I was excited and kind of because I've been doing these businesses for a while at that point, and I always try not to get too excited because I know I'm more excited to get the more disappointed you potentially could be. You know, like, I oftentimes find, like, the best deal may not go ahead, and then you kind of can get quite down about it. So it's good to kind of try and keep level headed. But one of the other interesting things that we didn't talk about was I feel like I may have made a bit of a strategic mistake when I was working on several and I got into the temptation of working with big enterprise customers who were asking me to do custom features. They were paying me to do that. But what happened was it basically meant that I couldn't focus on the core business, on the SaaS model. And it kind of, like, consumed me. I was just kind of basically working really hard for them. And, like, if you look at the amount that I was charging them, it was like, actually, in hindsight, I probably wasn't worth it. But because of that at the time that I got this approach to buy the business, I don't know. I was kind of like, maybe burning out. Like, I was working really hard, and I may not have been enjoying it as much. And so it was like getting the offer to sell was kind of like a really good outcome. I feel like normally I probably work out at this stage because of the still early days because I was in that situation. I was like, Oh, Yeah. This could be like, you know, the best outcome after all of this.
Johnny:
So in terms of timeline, you kind of broke ground on the code as a weekend project in 2017. Do you remember, like, how many months have you been working on Surveybot? But at this point when you received the outreach email from the serious acquirer.
Liam:
Yeah. It was about a year and a half.
Johnny:
This is like really early days. I guess you had a weekend project idea.
Liam:
Yeah, absolutely.
Johnny:
Started to gain traction, having serious early customers to the point where a legitimate acquirer reached out. It's only 18 months. Do you remember at this point when you receive that email? Like, what's the scale of Surveybot? About how much revenue are you bringing in from Surveybot?
Liam:
I'll just say one more thing that was running through my mind before Surveybot, but I had the startup I had was like a funded startup where I raised investment and I built a team, and I worked on it for, like, a few years, and it kind of ended in basically nothing. Like, I had also turned through all my savings, so I knew how hard it was, and that the fact that I was getting this offer was like, this kind of thing is not going to happen every day. But, Yeah, in terms of revenue, it was around the $10k a month Mark. That's kind of where I was at at the time.
Johnny:
So that, I assume, was enough kind of for your day to day for all the bills that you're paying. So you basically reach default alive, is that correct?
Liam:
At that stage of my life, a lot more. It was much more than enough to stay alive. And I wish that in hindsight, I wish I was better at actually spending it on the business. I kind of was just accumulating it as opposed to putting it to work.
Johnny:
Did you see that as a way to have leverage over the negotiation of selling? Because technically, you don't have to sell. You're not struggling to keep the service up. You're not struggling in any way. The only thing, I guess, would be your energy level on whether you want to continue, whether there's another opportunity. Because when I talk to people who are looking to sell, there could be a million reasons. Some people just had a baby, they don't have the time to keep it up, or they want to some cash for a down payment for a house. There could be a million reasons for doing these things. I'm just trying to get to how long did it take for you to from the point when you received that initial email to the call, can you walk through the process?
Liam:
There were a number of calls. I think there was like a couple of initial calls maybe. And then the acquirer kind of put together a proposal and presented it to me. And then there was like a short negotiation. And then, Yeah, we agreed. And then the acquire actually flew to New Zealand to meet with me, and we sign the final agreement in person.
Johnny:
So, Yeah, that was pretty cool. But the thing is, you actually agreed to stay on. Was that part of the deal that you would join their company?
Liam:
You can look at it in two ways. On one hand, it was more of a strategic acquisition. They weren't acquiring it for the revenue. It was actually more about working together to build a new product based on what I had done with Survey. But the structure of the deal was done in a way where I get paid something initially. And then there are milestones to work towards to keep me around. Like, obviously, after I joined, I could have just left if I wanted to. But there were those incentives there for me to hang around and work together on this new project.
Johnny:
Would you be able to share some of those if you were to do it again? Was there any positives or negatives that you probably want to do things differently?
Liam:
Kind of going into that deal was whatever I got up front, it had to be enough that I would be happy if I ever had to walk away without getting those additional milestones that way. That kind of mitigates the risk, right. In terms of what the milestones were I won't say exactly what they were, but but one of them was to release this product. And then the other milestones were based around customer numbers and growth.
Johnny:
For Surveybot or the new product for the new product?
Liam:
Yeah. So Surveybot wasn't part of the milestone structure. We took what was done with Surveybot and turned it into a new product while at the same time keeping Surveybot running. It was a good business, right? It wasn't just a product. It was a business with paying customer.
Johnny:
Did you feel when you're negotiating, there were risks involved were outside of your control. Because if you go into a new environment, joining a new team, a new company, launching something new and your payout is dependent on those results. Did that come through your mind while you're negotiating?
Liam:
Yeah. Absolutely. I think there's a point where you kind of just have to decide that you're going to trust this, you know, new organization or these people. You're both in it for the right reasons. I think coming back to that initial the amount that I initially got that key as well, like that's at a level where that's going to, I guess, increase your trust levels as well, because you're like, well, you know, if these guys aren't serious, they're not going to pay good for the plan. So I think I got to this point where I was like, I feel like we're aligned enough that we're going to work well together.
Johnny:
So in a sense, you're sort of looking forward to joining this company. And maybe it was a time that you wanted a change of scenary as well. Is that accurate?
Liam:
Yeah, absolutely. I saw it as a a good change where I can get the benefit of selling the business. And then I can also work within this bigger organization with more resource to work towards this new goal of launching this new product.
Johnny:
So you went from working probably at home or in coffee shops as a solo founder to a company. Like, how big is the company?
Liam:
Yeah, the company is about 150 employees. You wouldn't call it a huge company, but by far the biggest company I've ever worked for in the solo founder hacker.
Liam:
How big is the deal? Would you be able to reveal the sale price?
Liam:
Yeah, I can't reveal the sale price, but it was if you look at it as a multiple of revenue, it's very good multiple. Mmuch higher than what you would typically see the smaller revenue as deals are two point something. I think time is an average two to 4 times. I've seen some numbers published before,
Johnny:
And I think sometimes, like, I'll have friends who run SaaS would ask me, like, what would be the range, and I would tell them, well, Let's just take very high level ballpark. So you mentioned, like, Let's call it 10k MRR. So you're looking at 120k a year. So if you'd pay for, let's say four times, that would be sort of the top end and maybe maybe 600 if you're multiplying that by, if it's five times revenue. So you're looking at around half a million dollars. And some friends would ask me, Why would I go to these marketplaces and see 10X multiple? And I think on Twitter recently there was someone selling something that's like 20X multiple on fairly similar MRR that you got right. There's something strategic, right? There's something strategic where it makes sense for the company to acquire you so that they can fold Surveybot features into their machine right into their own product so that they could fulfill, I don't know, certain requirements that they need. And those are are hard to combine. People would ask me, Well, how do I get to because I will talk to sellers. Most of them would be interested in the price. They'll be like, well, this is how much revenue I'm generating. I want to sell at this price. And my response would be, well, you have to find a strategic buyer in that case. And those people are hard to come by because you need timing. Right. Like, as you said, chatbot was pretty hot during a certain period of time. Maybe at that time, that company wanted certain talking points for their own product suite. And they wanted this chat feature. Maybe right now is certain machine learning feature. So there's, like, this timing, trend. All of these things have to fall in place in order for you to kind of get a multiple that is closer to that 10X, 20X range. And theoretically, it could be infinite. Theoretically, it could be anything. It could be like, why why not 50X? Why not 100 X? Then you're getting to sort of like VC territory where Instagram sold for a billion dollars with literally zero revenue. Right. So that was a strategic acquisition. And then you stayed at that company for how long?
Liam:
I stayed in the in for about two and a half years. Yeah. We launched the new product, which was really exciting. And. Yeah. Then I kind of decided that I was ready for a change, and so I left.
Johnny:
So did you enjoy your time at the company? Did you enjoy working at such a, quote, unquote large company compared to your solo endeavor?
Liam:
Yeah. It was a really good experience. They were fully remote company, so they were spread across the world. So, you know, you're working with all these different cultures. And Yeah, I definitely had a really good time there, but probably the biggest challenge for me, and I think going in, they probably it was on my mind, but I don't think I really understood the extent of it, the speed at which things got done. There's a solo, I guess. Founder. I'll be thinking, well, I'm just wondering, like, what can I do alone? But turns out I can do a lot on that actually can take longer when as soon as you have really big team behind it, because there's just so many more things that have to be considered.
Johnny:
That's definitely a big change when you're working in a team of one to a company of 150, and maybe you're working at a team of, like, 10, 15 people. Right. And you're just part of a function of a bigger, much bigger organization.
Liam:
Yeah. So I think, like, during my time, I guess I go through phases where maybe more than I wouldn't. I'd find it challenging the fact that things didn't move as fast. But also, I didn't have as much decision making power I had in my area that I was in charge of. And definitely I made a big impact there, and I could make decisions there. But then there are much bigger things within the business that I wouldn't have a say. And so Yeah, definitely. That's another thing that I had to adjust to, because, of course, being a solo founder is like the ultimate, you can do whatever you want. You don't even have co founders to butt heads with or challenge you or anything.
Johnny:
And when you are joining as an acquired company, is there any difference between that? It was there, like, any power dynamics, because usually when you join a company, you kind of go through the regular interview process. So whoever you report to, they would kind of have that decision making power in hiring you. So you get the green light from them when you're working with them. But whereas here you might completely circumvent that you might be negotiating with the CEO. And then when you join the company, the reporting structure might be different. So can you talk a little bit about that?
Liam:
No. I think it was different. I don't even think I thought about it, but I definitely skipped their hiring process. I think I remember that they were talking to me about hiring different people and going through this process. And I was like, Whoa. I don't even know if I get through that process some of the tests was like, man, that's hard. Yeah. For pretty much the whole time. I was working with the CEO in the initial stages, that was different to the typical structure of the department that I was a part of.
Johnny:
And also you mentioned because when you get acquired, you literally get this money that hits your bank. Right? I guess. So in a sense, you could decide after a week that he does not for me. I don't really enjoy being told what to do. So I'm just going to pack up and leave. Was that something that played into the team dynamics that people kind of know that Liam might not be here?
Did that play a role?
Liam:
I don't think that that would never cross anyone's mind. Definitely. I was in it to make a difference and to actually do what we agreed. I genuinely wanted to release this product and work with them to do it. And there were times when I found it really difficult. It wasn't just like a walk in the park. Like, I've left startup land. Like, working in that environment just comes with its own set of challenges. You know, they're different to maybe a startup, but they're still had. I feel like I made that decision and I was going to stick to it and see it through.
Johnny:
And you stuck to it for two and a half years.
Liam:
I did
Johnny:
a fairly long tenure in our industry.
Liam:
Yeah. Absolutely. It is. Yeah.
Johnny:
So what made you decide to to leave?
Liam:
I think there were a number of things, like probably personal reasons as well. I was living in London, and then I moved back to New Zealand and just decided we could time for a change. Yeah. So I wanted to get back into the startup road, I guess, and have a go at some more ideas. That was another thing that happened while I was there. Like, compared to when I wasn't when I was working on survey, but I never had ideas, really, when I was working on. So robot, like, I'd never get other ideas for other businesses. Everything was about Surveybot, like, it was consuming my my whole mind, I guess. Whereas when I was doing my job, I would get ideas to start up all the time. And so after two years, I had this huge list of things that I was excited about and wanted to work on. And so I thought that it was time that I might it off and try some of them out and see if I can go on a journey again and maybe do it bigger next time.
Johnny:
I attribute this to you and how we met, actually, because. So you left, and then the company put this product on sale, and then I acquired it. So I believe because of all these chain of events, I could acquire it. And now we're working together. I hired you as a contractor to help out with revamping some of the stuff on Surveybot sometimes it's interesting how life works.
Liam:
Yeah. And I think this is quite funny because I'm sure the audience doesn't know. I actually wanted to buy Surveybot back. And as you would have heard, I listened to the last episode. Johnny mentioned that they didn't want to negotiate, but I made the mistake for trying to negotiate, so I missed out. And I think initially I was like, damn when I found out, I'm annoyed, should I be jealous of Johnny? But I decided not. The best thing to do is I'll help him. I had already kind of thought about what I would do if I took it over. So I'll help Johnny do it, because obviously it's a good look to see the business doing well and succeeding. So.
Johnny:
And I'm very thankful for your generosity in sharing your knowledge and just being open. Right. I mean, even just taking on this contracting role, obviously, you don't have to, but you're being very generous and offering your time and you knowhow in this space. But Here's the thing. So I'm curious, because this is a little bit of a surprise, to be honest. When I hear when you were in London, you mentioned you're in London and you wanted to have the change, and you have all these ideas while you are working at this acquiring company. But then you left that company and then you wanted to go back to Surveybot I thought you would have all these different ideas that you want to explore. So how come you want to acquire? Sorry. But again,
Liam:
Yeah, absolutely. No. It was definitely opportunistic. So the fact that it was there and as you know, that they were kind of sell it at low multiple, I thought, Oh, this could be a good way to have some revenue coming in, have some cash flow. Obviously, since I built it, I know it inside and out. I felt like I could, you know, optimize it and give it the attention that it needed because they didn't acquire it to really run it as a business. And so over that time, it's definitely been neglected. So I could see the opportunity. But at the same time, I was, like, thinking exactly what you said. It's time to something new. Yeah. I wasn't so disappointed when I missed out. I was just being opportunitic. You are, too, because that's your business. But it's all good. I'm glad that it's you who acquired it. I think it's going to work out.
Johnny:
Well, I'm glad that it worked out for everybody. And if there are any other future opportunities, if you have any other app that you have in your attic that you need to dust off and you're open to selling, I'm here. I'm right here to.
Johnny:
Awesome. Yeah. So that might bring me to the next segment, which is what's next. So I looked at your Twitter profile, and it seems like you're building this thing called Product Fit. Is that your next? If not, is there anything on the horizon that you're really interested in exploring?
Liam:
Yeah. So I have been dabbling with Product Fit, which is a tool that helps SaaS companies measure their product market fit. There's a Product Market Fit survey that has been made quite famous from a guy called Sean Ellis and basically ask four questions. And then from that, you can measure your product market fit similar to how NPS works. And so, Yeah, I've built a tool that does that, but to be honest, it hasn't been like an overnight success. I think it's more common than what you think, like founders who sell their startup and then, you know, do a bit of an earn out, maybe have a break, and then try it again. I think that second time around of that kind of first attempt after selling isn't always as successful. I was listening to the podcast yesterday with the founder of Drip, and that's exactly what happened with him as well. You started another company after Drip. It didn't go anywhere, so I've got lots of ideas, as I mentioned, so I'm hopefully going to try those out at stage. I did kind of like the idea of doing this 12 startups challenge, but I think it's definitely a lot trickier than what it would seem to just smash out these ideas every month. But maybe I'll do like three startups and 12 months or something and then just see which one gets the most traction.
Johnny:
Awesome. That's great to hear. I think this 12 startups and 12 months thing. I don't know anybody who has actually finished it. So it seems like most people would kind of get to three four either they flame out or something would catch fire, they would get traction, and they would just completely focus on that. One thing with the act of trying to accomplish that actually leads to you to your next thing or your next idea.
Liam:
Yeah, exactly. Other than that, is there anything that excites you these days that you want to talk about?
Liam:
Yeah. So what else am I up to? I'm also now that I'm back in New Zealand, I did buy a house, and I'm building a small, like a flat, like a one bedroom flat on my property. So that's been interesting when I say building. I'm not actually physically doing all the work, but just going through that,
Johnny:
Like a solo founder doing the sales
Liam:
and everything in the architect architects, the builder the plummber. Not at all. But it's been fun to do something different and learn in a different field, I guess.
Johnny:
So you're building a house, you have Product Fit running. It hasn't hit traction yet, but maybe you iterate on it. Maybe you pivot to your next idea. I guess this is a good point to close off unless you have anything else that you want to geek out on.
Liam:
Yeah, I think. Thanks for having me on it's. My first ever podcast interview, so it's cool that it's also your first guest. But Yeah, I've really enjoyed the podcast and hearing your guys journey and keeping each other accountable. I think it's really awesome and excited to see both your businesses grow.
Johnny:
If people want to find you online or if there's anything you want to share with the audience, where can they find you? This place is probably on Twitter. My handle is at @startupsmith all one word, just message me or you can tweet at me and I'll definitely reply.
Johnny:
Alright, so that's a wrap. Thank you for your time again, Liam, and sharing your journey with our audience. We look forward to what you come up next, whether it's a house, whether it's a SaaS, whether it's a social network. We eagerly await your 12 startups.
Liam:
Thanks, Johnny. I'll definitely run it by you to see if you want to buy it for sure.
Johnny:
Yeah, I definitely want first dip.
Liam:
All right, cheers.
Johnny:
Listening back to this conversation that I had with them definitely gave me a sense of gratitude, something that began as an attractive business deal for me because of the sellers wanting to sell and the fact that there is really no transition or knowledge transfer, which forced me to look at other avenues for help and reaching out to Liam. We're literally two people on the opposite side of the world. And yet through this SaaS where he owned it and sold it off to the company that eventually sold it to me, I'm able to meet this fabulous person who is very generous ensuring. And I can only look back and think about how much help that Liam has given me. And it would be hard to fathom how I'll be able to take ownership of Surveybot without his help. And it developed into a genuine relationship. And sometimes I think as SaaS founders or builders, we could be really focused on the MRR, growth rate, churn rate all the metrics. But in the end, I'm able to develop this working relationship with someone that I respect and are generally just fun to be around. So it's something that I wasn't fully expecting entering into this deal, but it's definitely very rewarding in that sense. So this is something new that we are attempting, and we would love to hear about your feedback. If you like it, if you don't like it, you feel there are things that we could improve on. Tweet at us @buygrowrpeat on Twitter. I am @johnnytong, and we'd appreciate it also if you can give us a five star review. If you enjoy the podcast and subscribe to follow our journey. We'll see you next time.